ATLANTIC REGION MOTOR SPORTS
The governing body of amateur motor sport within Atlantic Canada
ARMS Homepage
It is currently Thu May 24, 2018 12:51 pm

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

Proposed Rule Changes for 2017-2018 BAC RallyCross Season
Poll ended at Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:17 pm
1a) Double cone part of course and only given 2 second penalty 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
1b) Double cone part of stopbox and given a bigger penalty 16%  16%  [ 10 ]
2a) change stopbox penalty to 10 second penalty 13%  13%  [ 8 ]
2b) keep the stopbox penalty of ‘slowest time + 10 seconds’ 8%  8%  [ 5 ]
3a) include Spec Yaris 19%  19%  [ 12 ]
3b) do not include Spec Yaris 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
4a) expand existing classes 13%  13%  [ 8 ]
4b) do not update classes 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
5a) adopt a wider scoring matrix 10%  10%  [ 6 ]
5b) maintain the current scoring system 6%  6%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 63
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:17 pm 
Offline
1st Gear
1st Gear
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:04 am
Posts: 12
After another successful season of BAC RallyCross events, with more competitors, and more experience with bigger events, members of the club and organizers of events have proposed some changes and updates to the current rule set, in order to continue to run smoother and more efficient events that are fun for all participants. The BAC executive would like participants’ feedback before voting on these proposed rule changes.
Outlined below are the proposed rule changes which were brought forward at our March 28, 2017 BAC club meeting. Voting on these proposed rule changes will take place at our June 27, 2017 club meeting while the information is fresh in everyone’s minds, and to allow time for competitors to review any rule changes implemented while preparing for the next season.
This poll will close on June 20, 2017; one week prior to our June meeting, so that the data may be gathered and recorded in time for the vote.
Please note that this poll is for feedback purposes, and official voting will be by BAC members at the June club meeting. If you would like to propose an additional rule change to be discussed and voted on at the June meeting, please feel free to write a short comment below describing your proposal.
Thank you in advance for your participation in this feedback poll!


Topic #1: Course Design - Stopbox Definition: is the double cone part of the course or part of the stop box? Which penalty should apply if the double cone is hit?
Discussion: Key points noted include speed of entry, the need to know your course and adjust your driving to the course and conditions, knowing when you can't drive “full out” similar to how driving abilities need to be judged throughout the rest of the course. If there is a defined finish line and then the stop box follows, this could be 6" or 6' apart. It was suggested that a set of cones be paint checkered to be clearly identifiable as the finish line.
Proposed changes to current GCR wording: 3.3 i) A set of specially marked double cones will mark the finish line of the course, with a separate stop box to follow. This finish line will mark the end of the timed run and the penalty for hitting these cones is to be assessed as a regular pylon penalty.
Poll: a) Double cone (finish line) should be considered part of course and only given a 2 second penalty, b) Double cone is part of stopbox and should be given a bigger penalty.

Topic #2: Scoring – Stopbox Penalty: Should penalty be decreased to match CARS rules?
Discussion: Originally the tough penalty of ‘slowest time + 10 seconds’ was implemented to keep the stopbox ‘sacred’ in the interest of safety when approaching the paddock. With more defined course designs and rule, should this penalty be lessened?
Proposed changes to current GCR wording: 3.3 h) A stop box or slow down box will be used at the end of the run. A competitor will be considered a DNF if they do not stop in the stop
5 e) Did Not Finish – Stop Box Penalty – Striking any pylon in the stop box and or failure to stop in the stop box - a time penalty of 10 seconds will be assessed.
Poll: a) change stopbox penalty to a 10 second penalty for hitting a stopbox cone or not stopping within the stopbox, b) keep the stopbox penalty of ‘slowest time + 10 seconds’.

Topic #3: Scoring – Classes: After a successful trial last season, will Spec Yaris/Echo be included as a class this coming season?
Topic #4: Scoring – Classes: Should existing classes be expanded to include rear-wheel drive, front-wheel drive and all-wheel drive, with each having a stock and an open division? Overall, “Spec Yaris” and Novice classes would still be scored separately as well.
Proposed changes to current GCR wording: 4.3 – Classes: a) All Wheel Drive / 4 Wheel Drive – stock, b) All Wheel Drive / 4 Wheel Drive – prepared*, c) Front Wheel Drive – stock, d) Front Wheel Drive – prepared*, e) Rear Wheel Drive- stock, f) Rear Wheel Drive – prepared*, g) Novice (anyone competing in a season of RallyCross for their first time), h) Spec Yaris/Echo
*Prepared: Including (a) Rally and Race prepared vehicles, (b) vehicles with other than OEM (as the vehicle in question came from the factory) drive train (engine, transmission, rear ends, etc…) and or suspension modifications, and Harness (c) vehicles that have had parts removed that cause a weight reduction (seats, carpets, headliners, air conditioning, ABS, etc…)
Topic #3 Poll: a) include Spec Yaris, b) do not include Spec Yaris.
Topic #4 Poll: a) expand existing classes, b) do not update classes.

Topic #5: Scoring – Point System: As we are now getting 50+ competitors at each event, does that mean we should adjust scoring?
Discussion: Initial discussion was that scoring doesn’t tend to matter after top 10. It was then pointed out that novice class was designed to create competition among those not in top 10 slots, so a bigger spread in points allocation could be an improvement to include the entire field and recognize/reward the finish position of all competitors. It was suggested that organizers could adapt scoring to something like IndyCar's scoring. It was asked if this would create more work for Pidge/organizers' but noted that it is just a matter of assigning different values in the scoring matrix / formula.
Proposed changes to current GCR wording: this update would affect section 4.4 – Results subsections b & c, however exact changes would depend on the new scoring matrix chosen. Examples of how this year’s results would have turned out with other matrix options are attached for comparison.
Poll: a) adopt a wider scoring matrix, b) maintain the current scoring system.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 11:32 pm 
Offline
5th Gear
5th Gear
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 1096
Location: Halifax, NS
My thoughts as a rookie. I voted on more but these points I felt needed comments:

1) Keep it like slalom, assuming the double cones are when time ends. Whatever trips the timer is part of the box and that applies the usual steeper penalty. It doesn't matter much for rallyX, but I wouldn't want anyone crossing over to slalom and thinking it's no big deal to peg the timer cones.

2) I don't really have thoughts either way on the penalty itself, but I think stopbox design needs to better account for entry speeds. There was one event this year where the box was way too short. I've made the same mistake building slalom courses. SSW has tons of room, the stopbox can be really long. My preference is a slow box but either works.

_________________
'99 BMW M3 / '01 BMW 330i / "Elvic"
ASCC Solo Director


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 10:20 am 
Offline
3rd Gear
3rd Gear
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:14 am
Posts: 342
1) double cones should be part of the stop box. This one should be easier to accommodate. With a better course design (ie no turning into the stop box), this shouldn't be an issue.

2) + ten seconds. I don't really like the 'slowest car +10 seconds' idea. With ~50 cars at an event and plenty of new people in each one, that slowest time will inevitably be an excessively large penalty.

3) no preference. If there's more echo's/yaris, perfect. We still have one yaris in the family so there will be at least one out there.

4) Having stock/open classes for FWD/RWD/AWD is fine with me.

5) having a scoring system that gives you points proportional to how well you drove compared to the fastest car is the easiest to justify. Ie like what autox adopted from CASC (time attack?). The current method is fine too, but having more point denominations past a 10th place finish would be fair. I think you'll find those that finish towards the top of each event will probably not change places. Only those that routinely get 1 point per event (me) will see some benefit (ie we won't all be tied with one point).


edit: re what Scott said about stop boxes being too short at some events. I agree. i definitely did make them marginal for some events, and forgot to correct them before a few people had already done their runs. If i'm doing course design again this season, i'll make them way longer. I'd also like to see more slow boxes vs stop boxes. Done properly, they're just as safe and they keep tires and the ground from getting torn up...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:00 pm 
Offline
1st Gear
1st Gear

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:40 pm
Posts: 2
1) Hitting the finish line cones is a course design issue. Participants shouldn’t have to cross the finish line sideways.
2) Stop boxes in rally are used so that teams get their times. if the teams don’t have a time card to keep their times they shouldn’t need to stop. The CARS Stop box rule was introduced for the Quebec winter rallycross events to force teams to mind their speed going through a flying finish so that they don’t plow through the stop box and hit a finish control marshal.
3) Spec Yaris is championship, not a class. Same with Overall and Novice.
4) Stick to the CARS classes. “Prepared” in rally and solo/slalom are two different things. Rally cars are heavy and engine performance is restricted.
5) Actually not a bad idea.

Rallycross is rally and we should use it as a chance to build teams and grow the sport on all levels. Stop slalomizing rallycross.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 3:17 pm 
Offline
Overdrive
Overdrive
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:24 pm
Posts: 7756
Location: Halifax
The 'STOP' of the stop box here is used to reinforce vehicular and personal control. The CARS rules may not require it but I generally think its a good idea, though obviously that means the stop box design/length must account for this as well.

Like most things, however, it has to be applied uniformly. I've seen lots of cars not fully stop and not get dinged while sometimes they do. I has to be one or the other.

Personally I'm all for keeping rallycross very simple. Simple classes, simple rules. That doesn't seem to be the prevailing sentiment, however.

_________________
2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:45 pm 
Offline
1st Gear
1st Gear

Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:40 pm
Posts: 2
I understand your point but again, textbook autoslalom use for a stop box. It makes sense on pavement but it does not make sense in rallycross. it is a safety issue to ask 50 teams to stop within a 10'x20' box in the winter. the box becomes a curling lane... can you imagine the ruts/dunes if we did this on gravel?

Keep it simple and safe. cross the finish line, do what you have to do then leave the course.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:01 pm 
Offline
Overdrive
Overdrive
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2002 7:24 pm
Posts: 7756
Location: Halifax
Blackstar wrote:
I understand your point but again, textbook autoslalom use for a stop box. It makes sense on pavement but it does not make sense in rallycross. it is a safety issue to ask 50 teams to stop within a 10'x20' box in the winter. the box becomes a curling lane... can you imagine the ruts/dunes if we did this on gravel?


12 years worth of the Bluenose Autosport RallyCross series says we can, yes. If the conditions prohibit a full stop we waive it. We do this at AMP all the time where the stop box is often uphill and 2WD cars would never escape alive.

_________________
2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:06 pm 
Offline
5th Gear
5th Gear
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 1096
Location: Halifax, NS
So what came out of this?

_________________
'99 BMW M3 / '01 BMW 330i / "Elvic"
ASCC Solo Director


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:30 pm 
Offline
3rd Gear
3rd Gear
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 11:06 am
Posts: 226
Location: Dartmouth, N.S.
Scott, I would contact the BAC secretary, Meg Grandmaison, and she could forward you the meeting minutes. It was a rather long and heated discussion, but from what I understand, nothing changed except the scoring system.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:18 pm 
Offline
5th Gear
5th Gear
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 1096
Location: Halifax, NS
lol

_________________
'99 BMW M3 / '01 BMW 330i / "Elvic"
ASCC Solo Director


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:44 pm 
Offline
ARMS Treasurer
ARMS Treasurer

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:10 am
Posts: 86
Location: Falmouth NS
I'm actually working on updating the rules tonight. Will be posted on the BAC website under the BAC RallyCross Challenge CGR.

We changed the scoring system. We did NOT expand the classes. Yaris and Novice are a championship, not a class. Changed the stop box penalty. And we will now have a set of cones marking the finish time and a set marking the start of the stop box.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:23 am 
Offline
Overdrive
Overdrive
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:01 pm
Posts: 2818
I think the summary is that scoring values (points for respective position) changed.

The rest is mostly clarifying of rules.

Megs summary should work excellently.

Oh, and mentions of Pax or Solo Rules shall result in public Wedgies. We have an expert Wedgier on staff. :P

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:16 am 
Offline
5th Gear
5th Gear
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:27 pm
Posts: 1096
Location: Halifax, NS
I will never relent that stop boxes are stupid! You'll have to catch me to give me a wedgie.

_________________
'99 BMW M3 / '01 BMW 330i / "Elvic"
ASCC Solo Director


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:33 am 
Offline
Overdrive
Overdrive
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 8:01 pm
Posts: 2818
Oh I'm not the Wedgier... The Wedgier is fast and proficient though. :)

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:35 pm 
Offline
5th Gear
5th Gear
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:14 pm
Posts: 2199
Location: Sydney, Cape Breton
I missed this whole discussion and also my membership is probably expired but I think when Steve and I murdered the cones our last time out because my brake line ruptured, penalty was justified :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 4 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group