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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:10 pm 
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Now this seems like it is taboo for some reason, but I want some more info..... Several organizers expressed their disdain when I mentioned my own unofficial, self recorded lap times. This was not done on any sort of accurate equipment, and is not used for any sort of competitive comparison. I have checked the lapping regulations (link below) and the only thing I have found is this: "Official timing of vehicles of any sort by the organizers is not permitted" - Section 12

So, am I missing anything? Is the use of our own lap timers perfectly OK?

http://www.asncanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/2015-ASN-National-Lapping-Regulations-June6.pdf

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:32 am 
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Unless the organizers confiscate everyone's phones, they cannot control self timing. It's unenforceable.

Only "official" timing is not permitted (i.e. timing by the organizers). Unofficial timing it allowed (by anyone else).

That's not to say that the organizers can't give you the boot if they feel you are pushing too hard and putting yourself & others at risk.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:53 am 
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I think the argument is that if you're timing you're pushing 10/10ths (or at least pushing for time) which is NOT the intention of lapping. If you start making it a contest of speed, even with yourself unofficially, the insurance implications start to rear their heads.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:36 pm 
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4th Gear
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OK. Gotja.

I think the 10/10ths thing is already covered as anyone driving near it is spoken to as far as I've seen.

Cool, glad I'm not missing anything.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:41 pm 
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ASN doesn't prohibit timing by participants. Porsche Club, BMW Club and other users do, and any organising ASN club could choose to prohibit it if they chose to. Catching those who use timers in that case would be hard as Scott points out, and would drive the practice "underground" which isn't any better.

For me as a Clerk running the course, it's not about timing runs, it's about the possible consequences of aggressive driving in pursuit of "setting a fast lap", timed or not. Sect 8.6 of the rules lays out the aggressive driving black flag, but does not describe what aggressive driving is.

I think it is intentionally silent, placing the responsibility and latitude on Clerks to "know it when they see it". I believe the rules used to have a discussion of "85% performance", but that has been removed a few years ago.

Watching cars push the limit, getting sideways in eleven as they monitor Harry's Lap Timer to see if they can get a better time than someone else can set up a dangerous situation. Also, watching two cars "shadow racing" a car length apart as they start to reach the limits of tires and grip is something I would black flag as well.

I saw both of those situations on Saturday, and simply reminded both drivers to leave some skill and grip on the table for the unexpected event that can take you off track. In the end, the event Clerk needs to be comfortable with what happens on track. I was comfortable with what I had seen, but saw that pace was increasing to where I thought it wise to discuss it. Drivers almost always understand, and go back out to keep enjoying the day.

Some folks may link timing laps with aggressive driving, but it isn't a direct link for me. It's a tool that anyone can use to improve their performance, and that's what High Performance Driver Education events are for. Just keep it educational, and leave getting sideways to me on race day. I get lots of sideways for all of us then.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Sort of related...

Is there a way keep track of lap times more accurately through the use of a peronally owned transponder based system on non-timed events?

I see the lap times more as a unit of measure for you how are progressing. I'd prefer to keep distractions to a minimum and do away with the phone running Harry's Lap Timer.

If I could somehow just pick up a transponder that would log all of this for me for review at the end of the day, it'd be a convenient option.

I'm sure the low refresh rates on the phone GPS's make the results a bit less accurate than a proper transponder.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:42 pm 
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Mike Hiscott wrote:
Is there a way keep track of lap times more accurately through the use of a peronally owned transponder based system on non-timed events?

Maybe you could get a subscription with MyLaps... not sure exactly how that works.

But if you want data beyond just lap times, you'd be better off getting something like a VBOX Sport with it's 20Hz GPS engine (as opposed to 1Hz phone), or an AiM Solo / MyChron3, etc.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:02 pm 
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Mike Hiscott wrote:

Is there a way keep track of lap times more accurately through the use of a peronally owned transponder based system on non-timed events?



There are IR transponders as well that can be set up track side. Battery operated transmitter receivers with a reflector on the car to trip the beam. They used to be the only way beyond stop watches to get lap times during racing.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:17 pm 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
Maybe you could get a subscription with MyLaps... not sure exactly how that works.


That would require the MyLaps back end boxes to be hooked up in timing and scoring. The track loop is just dead wire buried in the ground without it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:03 pm 
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A 10hz bluetooth gps and a phone app will get you accuracy to better than 1/10 of a second (as shown by comparing laps to mylaps output). For monitoring driver/car improvement that should be plenty of accuracy. Plus these systems will give speed (and a few other parameters) around the course which mylaps won't, which is useful to see where on the track you are improving. If you don't want to see it while driving, just put the phone out of sight after you start the app (glovebox, back seat pocket,... ?).

If you want to get an "official" time, come out to the time attack in October. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:59 pm 
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kenmackay wrote:
If you want to get an "official" time, come out to the time attack in October. :wink:



Just about to say the same thing Ken!


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:51 pm 
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Official time or not I'm just looking to get quicker without driving more aggressively.

Thanks everyone for the help!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:29 am 
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Dev wrote:
Official time or not I'm just looking to get quicker without driving more aggressively.

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