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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:53 am 
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Hello all,

Please post your ideas for Time Attack & Track Days (Lapping) topics in the thread below.
This discussion will take place as part of the SoloSport Workshop.

First on the docket should be whether we have TA next year, and if so in what capacity.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:13 am 
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It would be helpful for out-of-towners to consolidate events around one another (3 consecutive day events on long weekends for instance).

Holding an event like the 2015 time attack nationals would likely draw some out of province competitors. I for one would be back in a heart beat. I know of some others local to me who could likely also be convinced.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:59 am 
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For me personally, Time Attack is just for setting a new personal best (official) lap time. I'm not so interested in running a season-long series. A big 3-day Atlantic Championship Weekend appeals to me more. Maybe a couple preliminary TA events to warm up for the big one.

Can't have too many Lapping/Track Days though. Best value for the money. I plan to run a lot of them in 2016.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:45 am 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
For me personally, Time Attack is just for setting a new personal best (official) lap time. I'm not so interested in running a season-long series. A big 3-day Atlantic Championship Weekend appeals to me more.


Same. A series would only be interesting if we had more than one track in the region. I don't have the desire, time, or money (but maybe enough tires :lol:) to run 4 events. But I do want to at least have one event a year to set an official time and would attend as long as it doesn't fall on a slalom weekend. And if we KNOW the weekend in advance (ie before HPDS) we can promote it. Facebook has helped draw in quite a few lapping/slalom participants this year.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:24 pm 
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I think it should be organized by the clubs, not ARMS.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:27 pm 
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http://www.armsinc.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=14051

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:40 pm 
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Also might be relevant, CASC-OR is currently debating some pretty major changes for the classing system.

http://www.casc.on.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=32325

Summary:
Drop # of classes to 7 (from 14?). So each class now has a 10pt PIP spread instead of 5.
Overall winner is scored on individual PAX (iPAX) based on your total PIPs. Whereas now it is based on the PAX of whatever class you are in. So if your car is 73.5 PIPs, you PAX factor is based on that...somehow.
Class winner either determined by rawtime OR PAX - the hotly debated part on their forum.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:35 pm 
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iPAX sounds like a great idea (if PIP's were an accurate representation of a car's true performance).

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:36 am 
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I understand the attraction that speed at all costs provides but (and I know this will not put me in the most liked category) should we be looking at introducing a speed/time limit that, if exceeded, requires mandatory safety equipment such as Safety cages, harnesses and drivers outer wear ??

I truly enjoy attending these lapping/time attack events BUT the daily driver vehicles are getting soooo quick I believe we are kidding ourselves that a major incident is not in our future and I for one would like to see everyone going home to their families and friends after a great day at the track.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 2:22 pm 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
For me personally, Time Attack is just for setting a new personal best (official) lap time. I'm not so interested in running a season-long series. A big 3-day Atlantic Championship Weekend appeals to me more. Maybe a couple preliminary TA events to warm up for the big one.

Can't have too many Lapping/Track Days though. Best value for the money. I plan to run a lot of them in 2016.


Same as above, but just one TA event at the end of the year would do it for me (and maybe not even that).

Promoting the events should be discussed. Inviting car clubs out to spectate events would be a good start (re: the Lowmotion event). Maybe contact clubs to let them know when events are coming up so they can spread the word to their members (eg get someone in the club to send the supps around to their email list/forum). Or send someone to a club meetings this winter to present how easy it is to get started.

As mentioned in the other thread an easy place to direct people for more information would be useful (armsinc.ca is easy enough but can be hard to navigate after that). Need a noob friendly easy to find site for getting started with lapping days.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:13 pm 
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Kevin Doubleday wrote:
I understand the attraction that speed at all costs provides but (and I know this will not put me in the most liked category) should we be looking at introducing a speed/time limit that, if exceeded, requires mandatory safety equipment such as Safety cages, harnesses and drivers outer wear ??

I truly enjoy attending these lapping/time attack events BUT the daily driver vehicles are getting soooo quick I believe we are kidding ourselves that a major incident is not in our future and I for one would like to see everyone going home to their families and friends after a great day at the track.


This has been a topic of conversation between myself and many members. The biggest issue we face is that this kind of rule change would probably have to be addressed by the ASN as a whole, not just at the ARMS level. Then we also run the risk of losing some of the few competitors we get out, a number which is constantly in flux and never as high as we wish.

It's a dangerous balancing game we're playing with that, mostly because we don't have the room for run offs and soft safety gear to reduce the risk for non caged cars. And good luck telling a competitor to drive to a delta when on a hot lap :lol:

I think we face a bit of a Catch-22 wherever we fall on this topic, though I do agree with you Kevin because it only feels like a matter of time before our luck and good fortune run out.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 4:57 pm 
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Also keep in mind that modern cars has much better safety from the factory now with dozens of air bags, crumple zones, stronger occupant compartment, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:13 pm 
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That depends on what we're defining as modern, though. A 1994 Skyline GT-R running 18lbs of boost may not have some of these technologies.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:21 pm 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
Also keep in mind that modern cars has much better safety from the factory now with dozens of air bags, crumple zones, stronger occupant compartment, etc.


The NHRA recently lowered the ET that required a cage for stock-ish cars 2008 and newer. We could look at something similar. Requiring a cage on 2015 cars that ran a 10.5 off the dealer lot was apparently a sore spot.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 6:55 pm 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
Also keep in mind that modern cars has much better safety from the factory now with dozens of air bags, crumple zones, stronger occupant compartment, etc.


Lots of truth here. Ideally, there would be some system that rewarded correctly configured safety equipment like seats and harnesses and roll bars. Some sort of points offset against other performance mods.

I say correctly configured as there have been logbooked race cars in the region that didn't have the safety gear installed correctly (see my profile pic for one example). Mounting belts and installing roll bars takes a lot of research and skill.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:25 pm 
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Without a doubt any sort of cage/rollbar rule will kill TA here, the series is already struggling. You'd be asking competitors to spend a non-trivial amount of money on safety equipment for an event that might happen once or twice a year, if at all.

I'm not anti-safety equipment at all, but that's just going to be the reality of it with nothing required for lapping.

Brent O'Connor wrote:
Lots of truth here. Ideally, there would be some system that rewarded correctly configured safety equipment like seats and harnesses and roll bars. Some sort of points offset against other performance mods.


This is how it is now. Rollbar is -1 PIP, Full cage is -2. Any brake system upgrades are completely free.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 8:22 pm 
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Scott Montgomerie wrote:
Without a doubt any sort of cage/rollbar rule will kill TA here, the series is already struggling. You'd be asking competitors to spend a non-trivial amount of money on safety equipment for an event that might happen once or twice a year, if at all.

I'm not anti-safety equipment at all, but that's just going to be the reality of it with nothing required for lapping.

Brent O'Connor wrote:
Lots of truth here. Ideally, there would be some system that rewarded correctly configured safety equipment like seats and harnesses and roll bars. Some sort of points offset against other performance mods.


This is how it is now. Rollbar is -1 PIP, Full cage is -2. Any brake system upgrades are completely free.


Not quite. Roll Bar and cage (including fire suppression) only get you bPIP back (body PIPs, not suspension)

And the safety / performance payoff is not there. Non-stock alignment is 1 PIP - a roll bar is worth comparatively more to the safety of the sport. And personally, they should be redeemable against any PIPs, not just body, if you want the concept to be the improvement of vehicle safety during an off.

And still no points for 5 point harness vs OEM belts, or for an FIA seat.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 12:18 am 
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Kevin Doubleday wrote:
I understand the attraction that speed at all costs provides but (and I know this will not put me in the most liked category) should we be looking at introducing a speed/time limit that, if exceeded, requires mandatory safety equipment such as Safety cages, harnesses and drivers outer wear ??

I truly enjoy attending these lapping/time attack events BUT the daily driver vehicles are getting soooo quick I believe we are kidding ourselves that a major incident is not in our future and I for one would like to see everyone going home to their families and friends after a great day at the track.


This is something that the National SoloSport Committee is talking about, for both Time Attack and Lapping.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:25 am 
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For Time Attack, it's easy. Make rollover protection mandatory once you hit a certain PIP threshold. Perhaps PREP class and up.

For Lapping, that's another story. There is no classing. And you can't set a lap time threshold because you'll run into the same issue Evan mentioned... Factory cars rolling off the lot and exceeding the threshold lap time.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:40 am 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
For Lapping, that's another story. There is no classing. And you can't set a lap time threshold because you'll run into the same issue Evan mentioned... Factory cars rolling off the lot and exceeding the threshold lap time.


Any because there are no lap times :orglaugh: :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:44 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:02 pm 
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Dave Hull wrote:
Kevin Doubleday wrote:
I understand the attraction that speed at all costs provides but (and I know this will not put me in the most liked category) should we be looking at introducing a speed/time limit that, if exceeded, requires mandatory safety equipment such as Safety cages, harnesses and drivers outer wear ??

I truly enjoy attending these lapping/time attack events BUT the daily driver vehicles are getting soooo quick I believe we are kidding ourselves that a major incident is not in our future and I for one would like to see everyone going home to their families and friends after a great day at the track.


This is something that the National SoloSport Committee is talking about, for both Time Attack and Lapping.


Dave, I thought ARMS and the local clubs had the final say when instituting a change that would result in "safer" conditions then what exist in the current rules ?

I may as well see how far down I can go...

Safer conditions, for lapping, could be achieved by simply putting a chicane on the back straight and changing that passing zone to between turn 3 and 4. This installation would reduce the speed at the fastest section of track and for the following turns thus reducing the level of safe barriers required to achieve a responsible level of safety for the participants of the events.

...just an idea for discussion.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:27 pm 
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We'd have cars spinning into the berm / embankment if a temporary (speed altering) chicane where put on the backstretch. The asphalt is too narrow at is. Adding a chicane would effectively cut that narrow width in half unless the track surface was widened. Plus there's no runoff there.

Personally, I find the backstretch to be the safest place for wave-by passing. It gives you plenty of time to setup for the pass, receive the wave-by signal, react, and complete the pass before the next braking zone.

Passing between Turn 3 and 4 makes me more nervous because it's a shorter distance, not quite straight, and leads into a very tricky corner. I prefer to save my passing for the front & back straights.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 7:14 pm 
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I agree with Scott.

Kevin, ASN sets the minimum standards in its rules. Clubs are allowed to increase the safety requirements.

ASN is looking to increase the minimum standards.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Scott McIntyre wrote:
We'd have cars spinning into the berm / embankment if a temporary (speed altering) chicane where put on the backstretch.
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LOL...sure...you had to bring that up. :) I only spun due to a physical force acting on a moving object being driven by a wing nut.
The chicane would be a two part design, one would begin at the exit of turn 6 and the other at the end of the back straight and they would be constructed as to not initiate a spin under heavy braking.

It's all just for discussion anyways.


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