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 Post subject: New 5 min pit stop rule
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:36 am 
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For those not at the race meeting, it was voted on to change the 5 min pit stop rule - you now can only start your 5 min mandatory stop under green flag condition (assuming the change was accepted by the board). I see this opens up one loophole we need to fill by getting the wording right....

The question is when does the 5min pit stop start, with regards to not being allowed to start the stop under FCY. I’d think that if T11 has FYC out, and you pit, you CAN'T do your 5 min stop. But if you dive in, and the sign in T11 goes up as you are driving up the hill at pit in, you are good. So T11 FYC board is the decider. Just need to figure out how to word “past the point of no return” at pit in. Cone drivers left at pit in would work. Maybe something even simpler?

If specific wording is not included in the new rule to highlight the situation above - technically the timing of the stop starts when you cross s/f for the final time before you pit, so one could argue that if I cross S/F, and the FYC board come out that lap, I'm ok to pit for my 5min stop as the "LONG LAP" has already started under green. Although that may be fun, its hard to police, and not really in the spirit of what we were trying to accomplish. The T11 FYC board is easy to police, as the tower can see the car and the T11 flag stand, as the situation happens, and it's easy for the driver (which the old system was not....9 times out of 10 id miss the PitOpen board in T9!!).

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Hey Leigh, if I understand correctly you would not be allowed to do your pit stop by diving into the pits directly behind the safety car when it pulls in (an obvious advantage, if we're doing the 'longest lap' policing of the 5 minute rule). That would be pitting under the FCY, as the track wouldn't be green until the lead car took the flag at start/finish.

But what about stragglers not closed completely up to the back of the pack at the restart? I could see a scenario where the cars towards the end of the line could intentionally lay back by 20 seconds or so, and thus be under green before they see pit lane because of a lead car taking the flag up on the front straight. Is it legal for them to dive into the pits (and thus score an advantage over the others, who have to go around again and do their full stops under green)?

This strategy stuff is fun... :D


Last edited by Andy Mitchell on Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:46 pm 
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We cant really use T11 as the deciding stand for the FCY. Depending on wind/weather you cant see the sign when you exit T9. Personally i dont often even look at the T11 stand as i technically never pass it on track. I think we need to use T9. Very easy for Officials to see. All they need to do is look towards T9 to know who might have got a lucky chance. Using T11 they need to look down off the side of the Tower. Drivers can all easily see T9 as they need to pass it. It will cut down on any debate. No arguing the driver couldnt see it as the sign was blocked by the building. Also T9 tends to have 2 marshals. making it less likely for confusion as 1 marshal can always be looking at who made it past prior to the FCY/SC sign came out.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:51 pm 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
Hey Leigh, if I understand correctly you would not be allowed to do your pit stop by diving into the pits directly behind the safety car when it pulls in (an obvious advantage, if we're doing the 'longest lap' policing of the 5 minute rule. That would be pitting under the FCY, as the track wouldn't be green until the lead car took the flag at start/finish.

But what about stragglers not closed completely up to the back of the pack at the restart? I could see a scenario where the cars towards the end of the line could intentionally lay back by 20 seconds or so, and thus be under green before they see pit lane because of a lead car taking the flag up on the front straight. Is it legal for them to dive into the pits (and thus score an advantage over the others, who have to go around again and do their full stops under green)?

This strategy stuff is fun... :D


The rule will need to be written, "(Your)The Pitting Car must take the Green flag Prior to Pitting for its 5 Min stop coming from a S/C(FCY)"

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:44 pm 
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If a car is hanging back far enough for the lead car to take the green before they enter the pit in road are they really gaining an advantage? The hanger back just lost about 1/5 of a lap to the lead car and most of the field will be up to speed before the pitting car climbs the hill to the pits. Rough estimate says the hanger back will lose on that deal.

Would think the rule should just say "no car may exit the track (enter the pit in road) for their timed stop while FCY/SC boards are displayed". The boards should be displayed at T9 and T11 (and elsewhere), but would think it would be the marshal(s) at T11 who would report if any car started on the pit in road after the boards came out as they would have a better view than the marshal(s) at T9.

So what other fun did I miss at the race meeting?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Ken MacKay wrote:
So what other fun did I miss at the race meeting?


Should be another more complete post in the next few weeks. Buts here is a baseline.

--Heat and main races are done. Will be Debert Race 1 and Race 2. Same with Penfield. All sprints are 15 laps.

--Points will be equal for all sprint races. 30/27/24/22/20/ect. Still keeping 1 point for qualifying 1st.

--Unlimited series will be based off the 4 sprint races. No classes as normal, just how you cross the line.

--Driver can stay in car or preform a driver change while fueling. Window net must be down and vehicle off. NO other work allowed on car.

--Person fueling car must be in fuel fire-gear with helmet and either visor down or sealed glasses on. Firebottle person is recommended to be in full fire-gear but nor required.

-- 1 series (including 1 hour) $300.
2 series (Including 1 hour) $450.
Full day stays a $530.
$25 late fee if registering after The Friday before.

--Jenn Earl is Updating the Trac website and creating a new Track Guide (Pending sponsors) Also working on Media and sponsorship setups.

--5 MIN mandatory pit stops can no longer be done during Full course yellow/Safety car. Can be started prior. Pits will stay open during FCY/SC.

-- There will be 4 regular race weekends in 2019. May,June,July and Aug. Sept will be the JCM.

--There were some notes about slowing down under local Yellows. Penalties will be given out to people who do not slow down. Noting NEW just reminding everyone to be safe.

-- 2019 will be James last year as Race director. Will need a replacement for the 2019 season.

-- Pro-stocks will decide within themselves on rule changes. (outside of safety)

I am sure i forgot some stuff. but thats a basic run down

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Thanks Joel.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:17 pm 
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We cant really use T11 as the deciding stand for the FCY. Depending on wind/weather you cant see the sign when you exit T9. Personally i dont often even look at the T11 stand as i technically never pass it on track. I think we need to use T9. Very easy for Officials to see. All they need to do is look towards T9 to know who might have got a lucky chance. Using T11 they need to look down off the side of the Tower. Drivers can all easily see T9 as they need to pass it. It will cut down on any debate. No arguing the driver couldnt see it as the sign was blocked by the building. Also T9 tends to have 2 marshals. making it less likely for confusion as 1 marshal can always be looking at who made it past prior to the FCY/SC sign came out.


All good points, I think this could work. So if I pass turn 9, there is no FYC, but when I get to pit in, and T11 has FYC, I'd be good to pit, correct? This is safer as well, no last second decisions....

The pitting as we go back to green is a none issue - u can't - you have to take the green post FYC, then you can do your 5min stop next lap...so you can hang back all you want, you have to take the green ON TRACK, then you can pit.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:21 pm 
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and you are allowed to pit under FCY, the pits will not close. You just can't do your 5 min stop. So marshal in T11 will have no idea if you are pitting to do your 5 min stop, or because you have an issue (or you need fuel, or want to change tires....hint, hint, we can now pit under yellow, take care of issues and not lose a lap....but don't do it if you need a wave by!!!) And now that we do not have to get out of the car, we can come in, fuel, and be on our way without loosing a lap - can play into strategy - so the new rules may NOT be that boring after all!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
Quote:
We cant really use T11 as the deciding stand for the FCY. Depending on wind/weather you cant see the sign when you exit T9. Personally i dont often even look at the T11 stand as i technically never pass it on track. I think we need to use T9. Very easy for Officials to see. All they need to do is look towards T9 to know who might have got a lucky chance. Using T11 they need to look down off the side of the Tower. Drivers can all easily see T9 as they need to pass it. It will cut down on any debate. No arguing the driver couldnt see it as the sign was blocked by the building. Also T9 tends to have 2 marshals. making it less likely for confusion as 1 marshal can always be looking at who made it past prior to the FCY/SC sign came out.


All good points, I think this could work. So if I pass turn 9, there is no FYC, but when I get to pit in, and T11 has FYC, I'd be good to pit, correct? This is safer as well, no last second decisions....

The pitting as we go back to green is a none issue - u can't - you have to take the green post FYC, then you can do your 5min stop next lap...so you can hang back all you want, you have to take the green ON TRACK, then you can pit.


Thats what i was thinking. And the only people that really need to knwo who was clear of T9 when FCY was put out is Timing and scoring. Tower would need to pass the info to them that #06 was past T9 stand when FCY came out. If you came in at that point. Just as a example.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:45 am 
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My memory is probably bad, but wasn't there some sort of plan to move to mandatory fire systems a while back? What's the status of that for 2019?

(Not that I want to be forced to buy one, I just don't want to be caught out late in the game if a change is under way and I don't know about it. Popped into my mind while thinking about the 'fueling with driver in car' stuff.)

Also, I think we decided at the AGM that a two person team could run the 1-hour race as a separate series alone for $300 all in. I assume that would entitle you to participate in all the regular practice and qualifying sessions as well. 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:19 am 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
and you are allowed to pit under FCY, the pits will not close. You just can't do your 5 min stop. So marshal in T11 will have no idea if you are pitting to do your 5 min stop, or because you have an issue (or you need fuel, or want to change tires....hint, hint, we can now pit under yellow, take care of issues and not lose a lap....but don't do it if you need a wave by!!!) And now that we do not have to get out of the car, we can come in, fuel, and be on our way without loosing a lap - can play into strategy - so the new rules may NOT be that boring after all!


Would you have to get out of the car if you wanted to change tires or work on the car during one of these new stops under FCY? Just asking for purposes of clarification.

(edit: asking 'cause Joel's post said 'no other work' during refueling... so I assume that if you wanted to both refuel and change tires that they'd have to be done as separate processes.. with the driver in the car all along, if you want, probably? Why can't that work overlap?)


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:42 am 
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under new rules you never have to get out of the car on any stop. Just put the window net down if refueling.

Reason you can't change tires (or any other work on the car) and fuel at the same time, is that it is dangerous - more chance of fuel spillage if the car is going up and down, and you are trying to hit a moving target.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:19 am 
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Thanks, and I hope I'm not being annoying by asking all these questions. No offense is intended. I just want to make sure that I understand as many facets of what is being meant to be adopted as possible, before somebody tries to turn it all into rule book language.

New rules (especially one-off ones, where we can't just adopt someone else's tried-and-true language to accomplish the goal) are almost guaranteed to have loopholes and unintended consequences the first time around. It's just the way things work. Talking out as many weird possibilities as possible beforehand can only help to eliminate some of them. At least that's my opinion... yours may vary.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:11 am 
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In chump you could change tires/work on the car and fuel during the same stop, but had to wait until one was done before could start the other (i.e fueling gear had to be back over the wall before could raise the car or pop the hood). The current chumpcar pit stop reg are copied below for reference

For a stop under FCY/SC (a non- 5 minute stop) is there any limit as to what can be done? I thought the reason for the 5 min rule was for safety so teams weren't rushing driver changes and refueling. If teams are stopping for fuel/tires/repairs under FCY/SC and trying to get back out before the field comes around again does that present a safety issue (e.g. bigger risk of fuel spill, someone forgetting to tighten wheel lugs, etc if trying to do it in under a minute or two.)? Guess it's no different than if a car makes another stop (non- 5 minute) under green for the same reasons, they are going to be in a bigger hurry then, but before you had to get out of the car for fueling so there were no splash and dashes. So guess the question is, should refueling only be done during a 5 minute stop?

PS Same as Mitch, I'm just trying to work out any bugs beforehand by thinking out loud.
Quote:
8.2. PIT STOPS AND FUELING OF VEHICLES
8.2.1. NO FUEL JUGS OR CREW MEMBERS ARE ALLOWED ON
OR OVER THE WALL UNTIL THE CAR HAS COME TO A FULL
AND COMPLETE STOP.
8.2.2. The fueling process starts when the gas cap is removed or
whenever any fuel jugs are over the pit wall, and ends when
the gas cap is replaced and all fuel jugs are back over the pit
wall. During this time, NO OTHER WORK IS ALLOWED ON
THE CAR.
8.2.3. During the fueling process any team member over the wall
must wear fireproof safety equipment. This includes fire
suit, gloves, and helmet with visor down. Non-driver crew
members may utilize a single-layer suit without Nomex
underwear. Other than non-open toed shoes, shoes and
socks are open for non-driving crew members performing
fueling but fireproof socks and leather shoes are HIGHLY
advisable. Non-driving crew members may wear an outof-date
Snell SA helmet for pit duties. Crew members with
out-of-date helmets shall mark both sides of their helmet
with the words “FUEL ONLY” in 1.5”, high-contrast and easily
identifiable letters.
8.2.4. Each pit stop for fuel shall be a timed pit stop. The minimum
time required per stop is five (5) minutes (pit in to pit out). Pit
stops where fuel is not added to the car shall not be considered
a timed pit stop.
8.2.5. There is no minimum or maximum number of pit stops.
8.2.6. All refueling jugs shall be DOT and/or ChampCar approved,
with a maximum indicated capacity of five (5) gallons.
Specialized nozzles (aircraft) or “Dry Break” systems are
NOT allowed.
8.2.7. During the fueling process all cars MUST have their electrical
kill-switch in the OFF position.
8.2.8. A MAXIMUM OF FIVE (5) PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED OVER
THE WALL DURING FUELING.
8.2.8.1. The driver exiting the race car:
8.2.8.1.1. MAY go over the wall, MAY assist the driver entering
the car, or MAY take one of the fueling positions.
If the exiting driver goes over the wall, another
appropriately dressed crew member may take his/
her place.
8.2.8.2. The driver entering the race car:
8.2.8.2.1. May ONLY be assisted with belts, radio connections,
cool suit connections, and the window net during the
fueling process.
8.2.8.3. The crew member manning the fire bottle:
8.2.8.3.1. Must manage an approved 10LB- ABC fire
extinguisher and be stationed no less than 8’ and
no more than 15’ from the point where fuel is being
added to the vehicle. This team member is restricted
from performing any other duty or function while
managing the fire extinguisher; their entire focus is
to be a safeguard in case of a fire. THE FIRE BOTTLE
SAFETY CREW MEMBER IS NOT ALLOWED TO
HANDLE FUEL JUGS.
8.2.8.4. The crew member fueling the car:
8.2.8.4.1. Overhead or elevated refueling rigs or electromechanical
units to assist in lifting or supporting a
fuel container are NOT allowed. All fuel jugs are to
be manually supported.
8.2.8.4.2. Only ONE (1) fuel jug is allowed over the wall at a
time and only ONE (1) fuel jug is to be poured into a
car at a time.
8.2.8.5. A crew member assisting the fueling process by
positioning the fuel catch pan and/or overflow vent
catch can, etc.
8.2.9. TEAMS ARE RESTRICTED FROM STORING MORE THAN 25
GALLONS OF FUEL IN THEIR PIT STALL.
8.2.10. THE USE OF ELECTRIC PUMP(S) TO REFILL YOUR FUEL
JUGS IS NOT ALLOWED. All pumps used to transfer any
fuel shall be mechanical pumps.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Just remember guys, the only thing we changed about the stop itself. (not including when you can stop) is being able to fuel the car with a driver in the car and window net down, or while preforming a driver change. Thats the only change. We could Never work/touch the car during fueling and that rule Stays for 2019 and as far into the future as i can help it. The car can not be touched by any person other then the Fueler, for Fueling purposes only and Drivers for driver changes only. Engine must be turned off as always. 1 person with a Min XX weight fire extinguisher, minimum be in pants and sleeved shirt, closed footwear. PIT Lain rules. suggested to be in full Drivers gear.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:26 pm 
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the only thing we changed about the stop itself. (not including when you can stop) is being able to fuel the car with a driver in the car and window net down

But that change has a spin off. For example since the driver can stay in the car there's the possibility of stopping for a splash of fuel. Couldn't do that before because the driver had to get out of the car to put fuel in it. Before people would only put fuel in during the 5 minute stop as that was the only time the driver was out of the car. So the rule change about the driver staying in the car has allowed a change to when fueling takes place (ie. not during a 5 minute stop). I was just trying to point that out. Probably better to decide if fueling can take place other than during a 5 minute stop now instead of after watching a car stop in the pits, someone fumbling with a fuel jug trying to stuff it in the car quickly, and then the car roaring off with the fueler still standing there with the jug upended, because the driver saw the safety car coming over T11 and they didn't want to go a lap down. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:35 pm 
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well, that was the whole intent of the 5 min pit stop in the first place. So that you didnt have to rush and would fuel it safely.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:44 pm 
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So, if I run out of fuel with 5 min to go, make it back to the pit, new rule or old rule - still going to be a rush....so rush fuel or rush driver getting belted in correctly.

Don't think you can say you can only fuel during the 5 min stop. What if you have a pickup issue and have to fuel every 30min?

The fact is, 99% of all fueling will still take place during the 5 min stop. We are talking about a situation that will almost never happen, certainly not the norm. Its good to bring it up and discuss it though.

Also, post fueling, the window net has to be put back up, so there will be a delay between fuel and leave.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:42 am 
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I agree our set-up is sorta weird, in that we have some mandatory 'slow' pit stops and others are allowed to be 'fast'. But the reality is that almost all current planned fueling is done during the 'slow' stops, because you have to get out of the car to do it.

So I guess it comes down to whether the primary purpose of the discussion at the AGM was to allow fast NASCAR-style fuel stops, or just to allow the driver to stay in the car during fueling. Because they could be separated - look at the chumpcar rule above that says 'all fuel stops are 5 minute stops', or something like that. Sticking that line in our rule set would eliminate the 'fast' fuel stops, while still allowing you to sit in the car if you want.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:23 am 
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My understanding was all we were changing was that "the driver can stay in the car during fueling with the window net down". WE could always Fuel whenever we wanted, just had to get out and turn the car off. I see no reason to start controlling when we can fuel and i do not believe that was the idea behind this change.

Feels like you guys are reading way to into this. Everything is the same as 2017 except you can sit in the car during fueling.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:32 am 
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I brought it up at the meeting, but had no intention for fast stops.

And to be honest, I'll likely still get out of the car and fuel it....

unless there is an issue. This was the intension - if there is an issue, you can leave the driver in, and not have to waste time with that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:15 pm 
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Scott and I have 95% of the spoiler/splitter rules setup. Just a few small details to sort out. Then ill move on to the Fueling stuff. Once we get it typed up maybe it will become more clear for everyone.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:17 pm 
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'Fast' fuel stops would only happen if somebody had to refuel outside of the mandatory 5 minute stops now required, i.e if a car couldn't do the whole JCM on two stops, or the one-hour on one. And if you don't have to get out of the car (or stay stopped for 5 minutes) to take on gas, they would be fast - i.e. everyone who had to do one of these would be trying to get down pit lane and jam the fuel in as quickly as humanly possible and get going again. The chump rule says that if you have to make 'extra' stops for gas, that they would automatically turn into an extra 5 minute stops, not stops done as fast as you could.

And I agree that everyone would still be trying to do things just as quickly in an unplanned gas stop under our current rules, but the fact that you'd have to get out of the car means that it takes much longer and nobody in their right mind would be planning to do that as a normal part of their race strategy. Being allowed to do shorter fuel stops maybe makes it a viable thing to try, I don't know. But I do know that if you don't want it to happen, now is the time to outlaw it.

Jeez.. communicating on forums is difficult.

And note that I am not trying to say whether I am for or against allowing these (what would be unusual) rapid pit stops - just that it would be legal to do them under the new rule unless you do something to stop it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:37 pm 
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Think a legends car running the JCM... I think the last one of those we saw try had to make more than one gas stop/hour. Do you want to allow them to do quick gas stops as a routine thing or not?

Again, I don't care. I'm just pointing out what would be possible unless you set a minimum time for each gas stop.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:33 pm 
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All good points... We want to keep it safe. Thats more important than the inconvenience of getting out. Most of the pro stocks have dry breaks, so not as critical (that is, we tend to only think about our own cars when dreaming this stuff up!). Thats why is great to discuss it. But rushing my Vette can very easily cause a massive fire....not good.


But the fact is, if you have a car that can't go 30min, even without this rule, you are going to rush the fueling.....so not sure it makes a massive difference.

What this will change, is end of JCM splash and go will become a viable strategy.....especially under a late race yellow.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:20 pm 
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I think everyone at the AGM was OK with leaving the driver in under our normal, 5-minute refueling scenario... so I don't think that's an issue at all.

The thing that I'm concerned about is inexperienced, under-equipped folks trying to do a their gas stops (incidentally, now with driver in car) in 10 seconds or whatever... haste can make for sloppy work, and I think the chances of something going wrong when everybody is rushing is a lot greater than what it would be when you know you have adequate time to do the job. And the 'fix' for that is not to make the driver get out, it's just to set a minimum time for any stop that involves fueling, so that no one has to rush. That way the driver could stay in, no problem, but the stops would be longer.

Anyway, as I said I really don't care either way. It would be an easy rule to implement, but it would kill the fun of late-race 'splash 'n dashes'. I'm really just pounding away at me keyboard because I don't think I've been able to clearly communicate what I was trying to say... which is my fault, nobody else's. So I'll shut up now, and just hope that you all understand what I'm going on about. :oops:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Joel, the old rules allowed for refueling at any stop (timed or not timed), but with the "driver has to get out of the car" rule no fueling stop was ever going to be a fast stop because the driver had to climb out and then get back in. No way that was going to be a 10 s stop with the old rule. If the driver can now stay in then a 10s fueling stop is possible with the new rule. The 5 minute stop rule was meant to prevent rushed fuel stops. That's all we're trying to point out, the "driver stays in rule" means that a fast fuel stop is possible. So maybe there should be a rule that any stop involving fuel must be a timed stop to go along with the driver stays in rule.

FWIW I don't have any objections to the driver stays in rule. Just concerned that it opens the possibility of something bad happening in the pit lane if fast fuel stops are now allowed. It won't really affect me but don't want to see something bad happen in the pit lane.

PS in terms of risk analysis there's usually 2 things to consider: the severity of an event and the likelihood of an event occurring. In this case the severity is high (e.g. big fire in pit lane). Not so sure of the likelihood (how often is a team going to need do a fast fuel stop? When these fast stops happen how likely is it that there will be a fuel spill that causes a fire? If there is a fire how likely is it someone will get hurt? What measures are in place to limit the severity of the fire/reduce chance of injury?). With the mandated 5 minute stops maybe a fast fuel stop will be a very rare thing and with the other safety measures in place (firesuits and extinguishers on hand) the overall risk is low? Just throwing this out for consideration for those that make the rules.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:07 am 
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I love the idea of late race splash and go fuel stops to add strategy options, but I'm not sure this is the best idea for us as a series.
Pro teams mess this up and have huge fires, not to mention its a huge advantage for some teams (like mine) who have dry break setups, so in order for others to try and get a similar advantage, its a much higher risk.

I have no issue with driver in during fuel stops, but I think we should limit it to our 5 min mandatory stops and not open it up to competitive late race stops.
This is just my opinion.

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