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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Points for the heat race isn't a deal breaker for me, so full point, 5...1 points, or no points works for me. If there is a big divide over those that want full points and those that don't want any for the first race then maybe strike a balance in between (eg. start at 10 points for a win and work down from there?). Maybe the question should be "how many points for a heat race win (pick a number between 0 and 30)?", and find the balance that way? Just looking at the posts so far it looks like
Joel 5, Steve 0, Mitch 30, Ken 8, ...


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:05 pm 
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5, or less. I think my AGM suggestion was 3,2,1 but I am OK with Joel's idea. If the points were equal I'd honestly just rather 4 separate sprints so I could vary who I race against.

I support the original idea of a shorter morning race/longer afternoon. 13 and 17 laps, or something like that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Can I get a reduced rate if I just do the 'for nothing' races?

I promise I won't even start the mains if you let me race the 'fun runs' for a cost proportional to the points being awarded.

:lol:

(and yes, that's a joke! But I'm telling Ken right now that I want those cycled-out tires I gave him last year back - they'd be perfect for these throw-away heat races that seem to be inevitable now.. lol again...)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:50 pm 
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And (just for the record) I'm really OK with whatever gets decided... I'm just whining about it because I've got nothing else car-related to do. Start the season, I'll get over it!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:17 am 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
And (just for the record) I'm really OK with whatever gets decided... I'm just whining about it because I've got nothing else car-related to do. Start the season, I'll get over it!


I need a hand figuring out optimal rear end gear ratios for a theoretical lap time that my car has never run before. If you are interested, it may help keep you happy perhaps?. Contact me in Facebook if you are interested.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:16 pm 
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Qualifying - 1 point to the fastest person in class
Heat 1 - 5/4/3/1 and determines your grid for heat 2 (within class)
Heat 2 8/6/3/2

I am up for shorter heat races.


How was the order of the AC determined last year? If qualifying time, why don't you mix it up by doing something like gridding up by most driver points earned ? That way the drivers getting lots of points are singled out (and are probably decent drivers) and they get the excitement of starting up front. It was very intense, but VERY fun starting at the front of the JCM.

I really haven't thought any of this through, just tossing ideas out.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:17 pm 
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I like the idea of mixed up grids for starting the AC, also, I think short heat races and a longer main would be fun.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:19 pm 
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Id be a little nervous of putting slower cars up front in a 1 hour race. Most of us run the 1 hour just as hard as we run the 15 lap sprints. So if a fast car was out back, he might push to hard trying to climb his way past the slower cars, In turn causing issues. In the Canfield its not to bad because we all know we have 3 Hours to get things sorted. But at the same time, it would make griding the 1 hour easy. Just look at the results and there you go. I assume you would just use the 1 hour results for the Grid.

As far as the Laps go. I like 12 for heats and 15 for Mains. Maybe we will have to get a E-mail sent out to racers and see how many will give a answer.
Just give the 2 options, Option #1 12 lap heat, 15 lap main.
#2 15 lap heat and main.

Points are looking like this.
Qualifying - 1 point to the fastest person in each class
Heat race - 5/4/3/1 and determines your grid for heat 2 (within class)
Main race - 30/27/24/22/20/18/16/14/12/10/ect

The few points systems I found that run a qualifier, heat, main race setup, do not give points for there heat races. Just the main race. But they have 35+car fields. So Breaking out, or Not doing well really affect you. But in our smaller fields, it doesn't really hurt you much. But if we put points on it, it does hurt.

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Last edited by Joel N on Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Most of us that start at the back with quick cars ALWAYS try and get to the front as fast as possible in the JCM, preferred is within 1 lap! Watch any of the vids from Leigh and I at the JCM and see how aggressive we are on the start.
I don't think it will change the risk any, I think those that end up up front are well aware of whats coming, and its fun for everyone, the fast cars in the back get to come through, and the slower classes that get to start from the front row.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:31 pm 
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While it would be interesting starting with faster cars behind, and I'm in favour of the skills it could develop in drivers, I'm not sold on doing it every race day.

Edit - Dev's concept of using overall points would offset some of the risk with skill. Just not sure overall yet.

One question on griding for the main race - in the GT4-5-6 end of things, we could conceivably have the slowest car in a class being slower than the fastest car in the next class down. Is that something that would get adjusted in the grid, or would we simply grid the rows from front to back, and let it sort out in the first lap?

If we leave it alone, what about giving a class leading car from the heat race lane choice if the end up grided beside a car from the next class up because of odd car numbers in a class.

My suggestions might just be too complicated, but I'll send them out anyways.

I'm liking what is in Joel's summary so far.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Hey guys, is the scoring in the new sprint series going to be by driver, or by car?

Or, more specifically, does the same driver have to do both the heat and main race, or could two people share if they wanted to?

I'm pretty sure the sharing in the same series is out, but nobody has said for sure. So I thought I'd ask.

The old Spec Miata series did everything by car, which actually worked out pretty well for some of us. But virtually nothing else in ARMS was that way (except for fees...weird).


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:23 pm 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
Hey guys, is the scoring in the new sprint series going to be by driver, or by car?

Or, more specifically, does the same driver have to do both the heat and main race, or could two people share if they wanted to?

I'm pretty sure the sharing in the same series is out, but nobody has said for sure. So I thought I'd ask.

The old Spec Miata series did everything by car, which actually worked out pretty well for some of us. But virtually nothing else in ARMS was that way (except for fees...weird).


Given that gridding in the main would be based on heat race results, if the driver didn't finish in the heat race, you'd grid at the back of your class. The schedule would seem to allow for two drivers to run both heat and mains in the two sets of races, Debert and Pennfield. (I infer from previous discussion that there would still be two sets of races)

No idea how fees would work if you ran heat race, a co driver ran the main race, and you both ran the Challenge. I would suggest though that it should be more than a single driver who ran the heat, main and challenge races solo. It's more work for the organizers to sort out the driver changes, and more "economic utility" to the two drivers as they both get to compete but with less wear on the car.

I wouldn't expect there would be a pricing set up for each possible config of driver and races. At some point, the price is one full fee for each driver. And where that point is I have no idea.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
Hey guys, is the scoring in the new sprint series going to be by driver, or by car?

Or, more specifically, does the same driver have to do both the heat and main race, or could two people share if they wanted to?

I'm pretty sure the sharing in the same series is out, but nobody has said for sure. So I thought I'd ask.

The old Spec Miata series did everything by car, which actually worked out pretty well for some of us. But virtually nothing else in ARMS was that way (except for fees...weird).


Only 1 driver per series. So if you register for the Debert series, only you can run the Qualifying, Heat and Main. I am sure if you took sick or broke a leg doing Kung-Foo between races you could ask for a Replacement driver to take your spot, but that would be a one off thing. And points would be for car ##.

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Last edited by Joel N on Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:57 pm 
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Brent O'Connor wrote:
While it would be interesting starting with faster cars behind, and I'm in favour of the skills it could develop in drivers, I'm not sold on doing it every race day.

Edit - Dev's concept of using overall points would offset some of the risk with skill. Just not sure overall yet.

One question on griding for the main race - in the GT4-5-6 end of things, we could conceivably have the slowest car in a class being slower than the fastest car in the next class down. Is that something that would get adjusted in the grid, or would we simply grid the rows from front to back, and let it sort out in the first lap?

If we leave it alone, what about giving a class leading car from the heat race lane choice if the end up grided beside a car from the next class up because of odd car numbers in a class.

My suggestions might just be too complicated, but I'll send them out anyways.

I'm liking what is in Joel's summary so far.


We would Grid like we always have. So if your faster then a car in a faster class, you line up ahead of them. Dont really want to mess with that. Would windup causing more headache then anything.

But just to give a idea what we will already have going on, If Matt Broke out in GT3 in qualifying or his heat race, he will line up behind the slowest car in his class.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:55 pm 
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Joel N wrote:

We would Grid like we always have. So if your faster then a car in a faster class, you line up ahead of them. Dont really want to mess with that. Would windup causing more headache then anything.

But just to give a idea what we will already have going on, If Matt Broke out in GT3 in qualifying or his heat race, he will line up behind the slowest car in his class.


Random Q, how many laps does it take Matt or Leigh etc to lap us?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:54 pm 
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If we are doing 15s and you are doing 21s, then I plan on seeing you around lap 12

If you are doing 30s, well we'll be by around lap 5 or so

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Hi again,

What do the plans for vintage look like? Is there any way that Brian and I could do a race there each and then do the 1-hour together at the end of the day? If so, what would that cost?

Not whining about the heat/main scheme any more, that's done and good for the folks that like it. I'm just looking for a way I can continue to share my car with Brian without having to beat the snot out of it doing 5 races every event. I'm in my sixties, and wanted to race just a little bit less this year, instead of more. My ideal scenario would have been to do two sprint races (one each) and the AC each round, but that obviously isn't going to be possible the way things are shaping up. And I don't want to just pout and stay home, so I'm casting around for alternatives. Any suggestions?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:20 am 
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You can still do your ideal scenario. Just skip practice and the heats and start at the back of the finals.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:49 am 
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Steve Phillips wrote:
You can still do your ideal scenario. Just skip practice and the heats and start at the back of the finals.

Thank you Steve, that is indeed true. Not quite what I was asking about, but a possibility nonetheless.

The original question was: will the vintage crowd be back? And would the rules there let two people share the same car on one entry fee? Inquiring minds want to know... whether it's ultimately useful or not.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:28 am 
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I dunno, you were asking for alternatives lol


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:50 pm 
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Andy Mitchell wrote:
Steve Phillips wrote:
You can still do your ideal scenario. Just skip practice and the heats and start at the back of the finals.

Thank you Steve, that is indeed true. Not quite what I was asking about, but a possibility nonetheless.

The original question was: will the vintage crowd be back? And would the rules there let two people share the same car on one entry fee? Inquiring minds want to know... whether it's ultimately useful or not.


Might be best in a separate thread or email, so to not take a discussion on the 2018 points system off topic. It's nice to have a thread that is on topic and working along with an idea.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:19 am 
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Brent O'Connor wrote:
Might be best in a separate thread or email, so to not take a discussion on the 2018 points system off topic. It's nice to have a thread that is on topic and working along with an idea.

Fair enough, I guess... but I think it's a good idea to explore all of the ways this might work before we start, even if some of the questions seem a bit wacky. Asking in advance might help us avoid a sticky Sunday morning registration situation that doesn't benefit anybody.

Anyway, carry on folks. First race weekend is certainly going to be interesting to see how it all plays out.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:42 pm 
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So what's the deal? First race is almost a month away....

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:56 pm 
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Yeah I would like to know as well. It's getting close and I would like to know whether I need to invest in car parts or a new calculator to figure out everything. No points for a race long qualifying session is not for me. Have your numbers written in stone soon so I can decide whether it's going to be road racing or dirt track this year. Not looking for heated discussion or explanations just the final decision. Thanks. Love to all.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:53 am 
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Really? The points system is going to stop you from racing?

Why dont you just come have fun with the rest of us, isnt that what its about?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:25 pm 
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It would be nice to know what the plan is for the 2018 season in terms of format and points. 45 Days from now we'll have finished the first race weekend. It shouldn't take this long to let racers know what has been decided, but it usually does. But we are getting better at it.

That said, I'm with Ben. It's not going to keep me from coming racing. Brian, just decide what you are going to do and let us know. We are, after all, racing for paper plates here.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:44 pm 
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The points could be sorted out after the last race of the season as far as I'm concerned. What I would like to know is the fee structure. That needs to be sorted out before race 1.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 5:11 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:47 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Fyi, if an email for opinions went out, i did not get it.

Lots said here.

- I like heats. And 13/17 would be fine. I do not want 12/15 (i want more seat time)
- One driver/one set of points per sprint series. To adress the A.M. scenario, swapping drivers within a quali/heat/final allowed, but results/and points follow the driver, not the car. Fees are per series, and drivers would figure out how to split costs for quali/heat/final Internally if they opt to split them up. So if i have another driver do quali/heat and they get 1st in both, they get 1pt +5 pts (or whatever). I start at back of pack for final with zero points... and get points as appropriate for the final i drive in only. Me and the other driver firgure out how to divy costs of entrance fees for splitting seat time withing one series.
- I think points for heats makes sense. The trick will be figuring out how many to give when there are two cars in class. 5 for 1st in a healthy sized class makes sense.

- breakouts: i struggle with what to do here. I debate if there should be a harsher penalty to break out.

If i understand, class is a voluntary choice. Three breakouts in-class is an auto move up to the next class? How about any one time lap that is 0.5s faster than bracket time is an auto jump up classes? Or, cumulative breakout times when they surpass 0.5s, or three breakouts... whatever happens first. The problem here is that some cars truly want to slow themselves down to stay in a class, sandbagging aside. Others will take every advantage they can get, i am sure (hey, this is racing, paper plates or not). Maybe this is a nice balance between being too harsh, and knowing that everone is a phone away from lap timing, and thus predictive lap timing.

- Gridding: what is the procedure for filling an empty grid spot? At other tracks it is often filled by the marshall as the cars are allowed out on track. If a spot opens when the cars are all on track, the gap is to remain unfilled. Last year someone stated that if an opening in the grid develops on track, the train of cars behind the gap gets to all go forward on grid. This turned my stomach as it could hurt many people on the non gap side (especially with the importance on heats to positioning (as if could effectivly put a 3rd place car in 1st in class). Can someone clarify?

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