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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:20 pm 
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1st Gear
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Hi.

I'm Michael from Dartmouth :D

I've participated in a few rallycross events with the BAC many years ago (2009/10?) in my little 2007 Yaris, and it was super fun. For whatever reasons, I occupied my time with other stuff over the next many years. I'd like to get back into rallycross again, with the goal of being able to participate in some other performance rally events.

A couple of years ago, I started dismantling the Yaris in hopes of turning it into a Production 2wd rally car. It's one of those long term projects.. and I know it's likely cheaper to buy than build.. but I love my Yaris. And after lurking around the forums, I see that a couple people also love the Yaris, so that's exciting. I've also read that there are some locals that might be able to help me get a roll cage built.

I'm sitting on a rolling chassis at the moment and have a couple questions.

Is there anyone that might be able to provide a lead to someone that could build a roll-cage for me?

Should I be investing in seats/brackets and possibly seatbelts prior to roll cage installation, in order to test fit the seats, and possibly have the extra transverse tube installed for the shoulder belt install?

It would be great to get the car up and running for the 17/18 rallycross season.

Thanks in advance!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Welcome back Michael. Come to the dark side.... it's fun here.

I would suggest you chat with some of the local Rally owners. We do have the names of a couple people who can build a cage, and do quite nice work. I'm very pleased with ours.

There is an old adage that buying build it far cheaper. This is usually true, but sometimes you don't know completely what you have bought. There are those who wish to build their own for that reason. Others wish to build bit by bit, for budget reasons. That makes sense as well.

The Seats are good to have when you start the cage. That way the builder can asses what is needed as the build is going on. The cage is usually the single biggest ticket item in a rally build, but it's important.

You can buy ready bent and cut kits. (custom cages, etc). They are good quality, and require little tweaking on install.

You are looking at building the Yaris, yes?

At any rallycross, talk with Jon Conrad, Kevin Partridge, Wayne Pitts, Gordon Sleigh, Mal Swann, Mel Smith, Myself, or others. We'll do our best to give you good information.

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Michael R wrote:
I see that a couple people also love the Yaris, so that's exciting.


They're super durable and low-maintenance, they have decent balance, they're great for what we do! I've always though they'd be a great way to make a dependable rally car. I look forward to seeing some progress on your build!

For a 'production 2wd' car, are you allowed to make changes to things like the engine/suspension/differential? I feel like some proper suspension + a corolla engine + an LSD could really make these that much more competitive.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Also keep in mind that a CARS/FIA legal cage vs a Rally Sprint cage can be different in weight/strength & price. It depends on if you want to have your car legal for Pro Rally or just Rally Sprint.

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:28 am 
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Bruce: Just build a full cage, you don't want to miss the look off! (Opinion: if building new, consider building a 253-8 full rally cage. The difference in Material cost might be less than you think)

Greg: Suspension yes, LSD yes. Engine swap, no. You cannot create a vehicle that did not exist in our market. Now just go Open 2WD and you can stuff anything under 2.5L in there. You must retain stock transmission as OEM for the year in P, but you can change Ratio's in P2WD.

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


Last edited by Ian Pearce on Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:11 pm 
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I think the "Sprint Cage" is mostly cars built and approved for other series, great for converted race cars.

Get the car running and driving. Brakes, suspension, exhaust, etc. Then get belts, seats, and cage all at once. Getting them early just means the clock starts on expiry. The exception would be if you can find used ones (belts and seats, not cage) which aren't that common around Atlantic unfortunately. In my poking around various cars it seems like there is very little you must do aside from the big ticket items, and a million things that would help with convenience and ease of use.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:27 am 
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Yes, my goal is to have a rally Yaris.

If I can get it running by next winter, I can use more stock bits and do rallycross, saving up for some suspension and maybe an lsd for the future.

I've looked around at the cage options, and it seems like if I get a full cage built to the FIA spec then the car would be more compatible with other events if rally becomes my new big hobby, or more resellable if things don't pan out, or I want to upgrade one day. (Picture 253-35C in the fia appendix J http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/ ... 53%20(2015).pdf )
CARS, and a couple of american rally organizations seem to have the same roll cage specifications, including the material options, so this leads me to wanting a full rally cage.

I've looked for cage kits online. OMP offered cages that looked promising, but after looking at the pictures, it was for the echo. I just found a cage kit from Autopower, but it doesn't match the 253-35C picture (https://www.vividracing.com/catalog/aut ... 39370.html) and I would be spending a lot in shipping to get a kit that would seem to need more modification. Custom Cages has a kit for some prius clubman racing, but not yaris.

After cage comes the fun job of putting it all back together, which would also please my wife - as I sort of stored the entire dash so that it stands awkwardly near her gardening area in the garage...

I've already given away or sold many of the guts I didn't need from the car, so i don't even have stock seats left :) So even they can't be used for test fitting.

I'll get one seat in advance. Most of the budget FIA approved seats are the 2009 standard, so at least they are valid for 10 years from manufacturing. It's amazing how many safety bits have a 'clock' in motorsports, which makes sense, but as a newcomer it's pretty intimidating.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:46 am 
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Do ask lots of question before cage building. There are things that should be explored, and sometimes going cheap, is not cheap.

Sounds like you've got a plan. Good stuff.

Yes, some of the safety gear can be intimidating at first, but you can nibble away at it. When it comes to personal gear, suits, boots if desired etc, there are lots of second hand options that can save a bunch. I've seen FIA drivers suits go on ebay for $100usd, if you can do with a less pleasing colour scheme. :)

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Yea, there's a few questions that keep popping up in my mind, but I guess I'll start translating the FIA cage specs into english so I can have an easy to read specification list, when I find someone who can do a cage for me.

Tim: My only reluctance on putting the car back together at this time is that I also want to find someone to blast a couple of surface rusty bits underneath the car, and get some paint inside and underneath the car - start with a clean and protected surface. I was hoping to do that once the cage was installed so that everything gets painted at once, and while there are only 2 or 3 things to remove in order to prep the car underneath (just the wheels and e-brake I think?)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:32 pm 
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http://www.fia.com/regulation/category/117

Article 253, Page 8 I think it starts. That'll give you a good start on cage stuff. English is on the right.

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:35 pm 
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As you say, seats have a 10 year 'clock' but that's only in non-Sprint rallies. Around here 3 of 4 our 4 events a year are typically sprints which means you can run +10 year old seats or +5 year old harnesses as long as they're in good condition. Makes them easier to source. The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally in August is our big event, though, and requires full in-date safety gear.

_________________
2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:53 am 
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1st Gear
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I got a quote from Overall collision in Dartmouth this week for a cage, sandblast bottom of car, and paint inside, underside, and cage. I originally contacted them in regards to painting and sandblasting the underside of the car - I have no rotisserie, and since it was my daily driver in NS, I don't want to lose the car to rust! It's not actually that rusty, but prevention is key, and there's a couple of weak spots that can affect the yaris in a major way (pockets that gather debris where the front of the rear axle attaches to the car.)

Anyways, Overall hasn't built an FIA/CARS rally cage before, but they have someone that does cages and frames for oval track and other cars and I saw some nice pictures of previous work, and toured their shop and saw some fancy Charger they're working on, which has a custom cage in it for some reason, and they did a great job with welding and gussets and stuff. The guys there also seem like they're pretty familiar with the motorsports scene in NS.

So it seems like a good place to get it all done at once, but I'm a bit nervous due to the fact that..
A: I've never built a roll cage, so how can I ensure that I can provide correct technical guidance other than what we can both read from the FIA appendix J-253.
B: How to confirm the proper tubing is used? Does a company like metals-r-us know what you're looking for when you say "CDS or DOM unalloyed carbon steel tube containing a maximum of 0.3 % of carbon" or do they look at you like you have 3 eyes?

Also, I have a couple questions -

The main structure of the cage is not attached to any point in the car other than where reinforcement plates are installed, right? (ie; no welding to the roofline, nor windscreen pillars themselves.)

In regards to the windscreen pillar reinforcement, and the door bars ("X" bar.) It looks like the windscreen pillar takes priority over the door bar as it has a single member requirement as well as specific attachment points to the main cage. I've seen pictures where folks pass the windscreen reinforcement through one bar of the 'X' (one X bar becomes 3 pieces, which seems legal) and then weld the windscreen bar and door bar to the front rollbar. This keeps everything straight in side and front view. I've also seen pictures of the windscreen pillar being bent in front view, to bend around the door-bars. What's correct? It's confusing. This page has examples: https://www.va-motorsport.com/rollcages/?page=44

Also this statment is odd to me: "In the case of doorbars in the form of an "X" (Drawing 253‐9), it is recommended that the lower attachment points of the cross‐struts be fixed directly onto the longitudinal member of the bodyshell/chassis and that at least one part of the "X" be a single‐piece bar." ...I can't decipher this at all because I have no idea where this new longitudinal member is. :?

Is the rear diagonal 'X' allowed to be 3 pieces? The book says that members must be straight, so bending doesn't seem to be allowed. Or does it have to be bent in the middle, effectively putting 2 V shapes together? ( like this... >< ?)

It sounds like the roof reinforcement would be easier to do as a V. But if it's done as an X, again - can a person use 3 pipes, or does it have to be 2 V shapes?

Also, CARS wants a pipe bending sample, correct (45cm bent 60deg for each pipe diameter used.)?

Does anyone have pictures of their legal doorbar/windscreen pillar setups, and possibly rear diagonal/roof reinforcement?


I still haven't committed to anything yet. Is all of this a big cry for help? Most likely! If anyone finds themselves in downtown Dartmouth and wants to chat about cagey things, send a PM!

Thanks in advance everyone!
(also, sorry for the wall of text!)


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Overdrive
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Hi Michael, I've built several cages and will be building a FIA cage for the Yaris that I just bought. Perhaps I could build 2 at the same time. I understand all of these complicated FIA rules. ie: the lower door bar diagonals etc. Probably wont happen until the Fall though. Let me know if interested.

_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Overdrive
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There are several logbooked rally cars in HRM if you want to lay eyes on them. Its important not to take layman advice on cages (No, I'm not calling you a layman, Bruce. :) ). I have no real knowledge about Overall but I've seen MANY a horror story of people who have gone to 4x4 and Circle Track builders and come out with a cage that just won't pass muster for a logbook. The cage is something you a) want done in an extremely functional form for obvious reasons and b) done right the first time. To that end I'm not going to answer most of the truly technical questions in case I'm wrong. :)

There's a number of build and later pictures of our car here: http://www.gordonsleigh.com/index.php?/category/11 It doesn't really go into all aspects of the cage but you can see a bunch of it including a few before it was all welded into place. Ours is not welded to the chassis pillars which many prefer but that's optional. You absolutely want to reinforce where the cage mounts to the chassis

There's no requirement to send CARS a sample, we have a regional CARS scrutineer (James Whitman) who will look over your cage an assign a logbook when it all checks out including the bends, welds, etc. Its a good idea to keep in touch with him through the process, probably before you start building if you have any questions.

Metals-R-Us can absolutely get the metal required as can a couple of other sources. There's also the option of pre-bent cage kits which you know are built/bent/designed properly right out of the box, but you'll pay a bit extra for that.

_________________
2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:27 am 
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Be very very careful on who builds your cage.

It is the most important safety item, and sadly, we have seen situations where someone has spent time and money, only to have something that does not meet specification.

Gordon's pictures do a good representation of how to build the cage in the shell, and jack into place. Ensuring tubing is welded on the complete circumference of the tube is key.

Our cage is welded to mount plates, and to the suspension pickup points. You will find some that are welded via a tab or plate to the windscreen A pillar structure. (I believe Jon Conrads is an example of this)

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:40 am 
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Some desire not to connect the A pillers for when they need to cut the roof off and install a new one. Did you pick up on "when" (not "if)?

here are pics of my Delsol just prior to going to Targa NL. I built the cage with Rallysprint/Targa/GT3 in mind and near FIA spec. All it needed for FIA is the proper gussets added. Did one Rallysprint with it. Some of you know what happened there. Then it moved on to GT3 and was modified by Joel, never to see gravel again.
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_________________
GT1 - 88 Camaro 1LE/Nissan 200SX
GT2 - 90 CRX/Nissan 200SX
GT3 - 88 CRX/1975 Civic/1997 Acura Integra
GT4 - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
GT5 - 89 Suzuki Swift GTI
GT6 - 86 CRX
ITE - 88 Camaro 1LE
ITA - 89/90 CRX Si
ITB - 85 Civic 1500S/89 Suzuki Swift GTI
ITC - 85/86 Civic
SM - 93/2000 Mazda Miata
Targa NL - 88 CRX Si
Rally Sprint - 95 Del Sol VTEC
Unlimited - All of the above!


Last edited by Bruce McNutt on Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:45 am 
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Quote: "Some desire not to connect the A pillers for when they need to cut the roof off and install a new one. Did you pick up on "when" (not "if)?"


Trying desperately not to think about that Bruce. :)

_________________
"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


Last edited by Ian Pearce on Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Isn't that car undefeated in Rally Sprints? :P


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:27 pm 
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Brian Partridge wrote:
Isn't that car undefeated in Rally Sprints? :P


We'll never know, he never came back......... :twisted:

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Thanks for the fantastic replies! The pics are great, and i definitely like the different examples of extra reinforcements.

Did holes have to be cut in the floor of the subaru to jack the cage up? Impressive.

I'll pm you Bruce.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:06 pm 
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The two common methods are to cut holes int he floor to get the cage fully assembled and welded then jack it into place and weld up the floor. The theory is that you're already going to be reinforcing the floor so its not a lot of extra effort. Its fairly common also to remove the roof panel to get the welds done. It really comes down to preference.

_________________
2005 Forester XT (Daily/B2Tuned), 2000 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS P4WD Class Rally Car, 2006 WRX RallyCross Car (Sponsors: Rally-Tech, Great North Performance)
Check out: Rally East, The Ledwidge Lookoff Rally


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:48 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 6:01 pm 
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So many little things!
I had a feeling zip ties would be an important tool.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Never underestimate Zip Ties in any form of motorsport..... :)

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2017 10:30 am 
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There is what the rules say you must have, and what you might need on the side of the road.

Sprint rules have certainly changed since that Del Sol ran. No requirement for HANS and you could have stock seats.

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