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 Post subject: 2018
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 10:11 am 
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Big thanks to everyone for the excellent coverage on Sunday.

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"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:54 am 
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2nd that! Sorry to the marshal from T2 that went to the white civic - I was slow over 5 to deal with whatever was on track - track was clear, I was back to full throttle, then a marshals head popped up from behind the car - 1st I thought it was the driver, then moments later I considered it was a marshal...too late. I would not have got back in it if I knew there was a marshal at the car....

In the future, when there is a marshal trackside, and it's not FYC, lets use a double waved yellow. You guys are way more important that a single waved yellow!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:13 am 
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Here is the crux of our issue.

You can use double waved, when you have 24 people available. You almost never can at AMP, because we are all doing not double duty, but quad duty.

On paper, it's a double waved. In practice, we need 12 trained Octopi to make this happen.

We don't want to limit our ability to do a proper response with trained people, but if there is a safety issue, then we need to hold back. This delays the ability to return to racing quickly and efficiently.

If T5 had 2 or 3 folks on Sunday, no issue. At amp we should expect that a single waved could have grater implication that it might at say, Road America, or Circuit GV.

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:42 am 
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guess I'm missing something, can't the marshal in 5 waving one flag just pick up another and wave it too? Must be a more complex procedure for double yellow? If we are "different" (understaffed), then maybe we need "different" rules for flag usage....

Another question, trying to learn here and not be critical, why was the Marshal trackside for a car that was stuck? Driver was in no apparent danger - I don't have all the facts, just what I saw from my seat. Car appeared to just slide in the grass...it drove back...did not appear to roll or be on fire....

My first thought was why is scott getting out of his car, he knows better, then a moment later it dawned on me that it was not the driver getting out, it was a marshal at the car....

could I have waited to accelerate once past the scene, and not lost any positions? yes...but I don't think that is the point. To improve safety in this situation for all, when a marshal is trackside without FYC, there needs to be another level of warning to the drivers, other than the standard steady yellow followed by a waved yellow.....even a rapidly waved yellow would do - this one was very mellow....

Again, trying to learn and improve here, not criticizing anyone. There was lots of Rookie drivers, marshals and officials this event, we all need to grow together.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:29 am 
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You cannot hold two flags and key the radio at the same time. That is the basic issue. There is a lot of information that is dealt with during any corner action, more than a lot of racers realize I think.

As for the Marshal at the car: On countless occasions over the years, a quick push can sometimes get a car back underway if it's a wet grass situation. I've done it many a time, as have others. This allows a quick return to racing, and eliminates the need for SC or Shutdown.

In the case of car 67, this wouldn't have worked of course, the car was proper stuck, but you don't know that from Control, you don't know that until you get closer, and sometimes until you put your hands on the car.

In regards to fire: Yep, it was not on fire. It might have been on fire in 7 second though, or 30, or 50..... FIA response is at the car in 30 sec. If we didn't respond, and we had, lets say the MK1 GTI from 17 years ago on the outside of 2, do you want your car well and truly engulfed by the time the decision is made to roll 200lbs of foam?

Absolutely no hard feelings. Like you say, this sharing of info lets both sides of the car know how things work. Things just work slower for me when I'm in the car. :P

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:47 pm 
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At amp we should expect that a single waved could have grater implication that it might at say, Road America, or Circuit GV.


We need to include this in our Race School teaching...I was unaware of any of this, as I'm sure most racers are who have not marshalled. I wrote a checklist/set of guidelines for our race school to help the instructors - I will add this. I always teach about double waved yellows - but no point really if they are impossible. And I was expecting to see double yellows for a bad situation - learn something new every day!

Ian, if there is anything else you can think of that would be helpful for us to teach from a marshalling point of view, at the Race School, send it my way.

I do still feel there needs to be some extra indication that there is a marshal trackside - can we put a big M on the other side of the FCY boards, and just hang that out when a marshal is track side?

To miss a yellow flag as a driver is one thing, that is an error, and it can be corrected. This situation, no body did anything wrong or outside the rules. The marshal did as per training, and I slowed significantly for the yellow, and was prepared to deal with whatever came at me on the other side of T5. If I had know there was a marshal trackside, I would have handled the situation differently after cresting T5 - kind of like a highway construction site - most people slow down a bit more when you get to the spot that humans are close to moving traffic...


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:17 pm 
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Yeah, it's a tough one.

Technically, 8.3.1a says, you slow down for a single Yellow. I recall my last race school, the lead instructor used the declaration "seven tenths". So 7/10 of your normal pace under yellow.

Some of the stands have been upgraded with a holder for a flag. You can sometimes hang one yellow, wave the second, and be relaying the required info to control. Maybe sip some coffee in there as well.... Two yellows would be the intention to be shown when anyone is trackside. Just physically hard.

I'll let my mind gel on the any other points question. Frankly I think we have a fairly good rule set with good details on flagging.

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:49 am 
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Interestingly the FIA Sporting Code only covers two forms of yellow flag. Waved single yellow and waved double yellow. Solid stationary yellow is not listed.


https://www.fia.com/file/68348/download ... n=hKiflaXX
b) Yellow flag
This is a signal of danger and should be shown to drivers in two ways with the following meanings:
- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track. It must be evident that a driver has reduced speed; this means a driver is expected to have braked earlier and/or noticeably reduced speed in that sector.
- Double waved: Reduce your speed significantly, do not overtake, and be prepared to change direction or stop. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/ or marshals working on or beside the track. During free practice and qualifying, it must be evident that a driver has not attempted to set a meaningful lap time; this means the driver should abandon the lap (this does not mean he has to pit as the track could well be clear the following lap).
Yellow flags should normally be shown only at the marshal post immediately preceding the hazard.
In some cases, however, the Clerk of the Course may order them to be shown at more than one marshal post preceding an incident.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:22 am 
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Double waved is taught in the race school (and the HPDS), if we can't do it here then the drivers should be aware. My understanding is that double waved means there is an incident you need to slow down a lot for. Single waved has always been about 8/10 for me (and very much 9/10-9.9/10 for some other drivers) - look around, be aware because something is happening off the track and someone may be re-entering.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:32 pm 
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I teach double waved yellows as well, then I'm told we can't do them all the time (which essentially means we can't do them ever in my book)....I will change what I'm teaching.

I thought we used them, as I was also taught them at my school, many moons ago.

Based on everything I've heard since the last race, I truly feel a marshal should not try to push or assist a car under local yellow. It's not worth it. No pro series does this - reason - marshals were getting run over - saw it live in Vancouver - not safe. If there is a serious situation, like fire or bad crash, it will go FCY or red very fast, but marshal will probably be at the seen sooner - ok, take risk when it is worth it, not for a stuck car.

Scotts incident on Sunday, i was fully prepared to stop cresting 5, I got back in it as all I saw was a car in the grass, then a moment later a head popped up.....if the car was on fire or rolled, I would not have accelerated - on fire I probably would have pulled over to help...fire sucks!


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:19 pm 
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There is a bit of confusion here in the posts. To say we can't show a double waved yellow isn't correct. What we can't do is have a Marshal show Double waved yellow and talk on the radio. Every flag station at AMP with the exception of turn 6 is visible from the tower.

In the incident last race weekend, the Double waved requirement was generated by the clerk/race control by having the Marshall respond without being covered by flags in that sector. That response increased the risk from single to double waved, and that signal could not be delivered.

The first priority to me would be displaying the correct flagging signal. Sending the Marshal off stand without correct flag coverage should be a risk management decision, not a race efficiency decision. If the car is off line, no indication of driver injury, then perhaps best to use the safety car. Yes, that reduces the amount of racing on a given session, but so be it.

But for instructors to modify what they teach concerning our rules and yellow flagging based on this incident does not compute to me. Best to teach what the rules say, and have the Clerk and race control not create situations where the flagging a driver is about to be presented with doesn't match the actual on track risk.

In short, the Marshal should have been left on the stand if flag coverage was not available unless the driver's safety warranted increasing the risk to the Marshal.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:32 pm 
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not ALWAYS being able to do double yellow makes it very confusing for everyone - either you can our you cant, no in between in my books...these are split second decisions....if someone has to think about what corner is able to and what corner is not able to put a double yellow out, it's already taken too long for an emergency situation. If we normally can't do double yellow, get ride of it. Then if a situation requires it, FCY. Simple. Don't re right the rules, just apply them differently.

But I'm going to teach reality, and the reality as I've been told is there really is no double yellows at AMP.....

Brent I agree that this is a risk managment decision, not race efficency - it take as many FYC as necessary to keep the marshals safe. And now that we are getting more use to FCY with a pace car, they are normally only 2 laps, they can be really quick.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
not ALWAYS being able to do double yellow makes it very confusing for everyone - either you can our you cant, no in between in my books...these are split second decisions....if someone has to think about what corner is able to and what corner is not able to put a double yellow out, it's already taken too long for an emergency situation. If we normally can't do double yellow, get ride of it. Then if a situation requires it, FCY. Simple. Don't re right the rules, just apply them differently.

But I'm going to teach reality, and the reality as I've been told is there really is no double yellows at AMP.....

Brent I agree that this is a risk managment decision, not race efficency - it take as many FYC as necessary to keep the marshals safe. And now that we are getting more use to FCY with a pace car, they are normally only 2 laps, they can be really quick.


But we CAN ALWAYS show Double Waved Yellow. Priority one, show the right flags. We can show double yellows. If the situation needs double waved yellows, then stay off the radio and wave the yellows.

But if our marshaling body believes that isn't going to work well, then we need an IMMEDIATE change to the rules. SCCA uses only single standing and Waved, as an example.

But the problem in this case was not can we wave the flag, it was that race officials created a situation where flag signals could not be used, then the race director rebuked drivers concerning yellow flag speeds when the drivers were following exactly what the rules say.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Here is the crux of our issue.

You can use double waved, when you have 24 people available. You almost never can at AMP, because we are all doing not double duty, but quad duty.

On paper, it's a double waved. In practice, we need 12 trained Octopi to make this happen.
this was from Ian above...

ahhh, Ian pretty much says here we can't use them. We are understaffed, have been for awhile, not sure that is going to change anytime soon. That's just our reality.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:29 pm 
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Leigh Pettipas wrote:
Quote:
Here is the crux of our issue.

You can use double waved, when you have 24 people available. You almost never can at AMP, because we are all doing not double duty, but quad duty.

On paper, it's a double waved. In practice, we need 12 trained Octopi to make this happen.
this was from Ian above...

ahhh, Ian pretty much says here we can't use them. We are understaffed, have been for awhile, not sure that is going to change anytime soon. That's just our reality.


How in the hell are we just realising this now? It's rather silly given the seriousness of the subject matter.

I look forward to revised yellow flag rules in the supp regs before next race.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:45 am 
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Wow.

Been busy with a small motorsport event in Montreal the past, week, not been keeping up......

1) Yes Leigh, some major tracks have eliminated the ability to respond to an incident. Those events are now suffering in a huge manner with staffing. Part of the job we choose to do, is the ability to do some good. Ask a flagger how useless they felt to watch a $750,000 Ferarri burn to the ground right in front of their stand when a bottle could have saved it. (as stated by fire as well) The tracks who have eliminated FIA response, now also DO NOT have the best of the best at their events. Nuff said.

2) My words have been taken literally. I will adjust them: It is difficult to do four things at once. Keep teaching the protocol, as it was and has been for years. We will do our best to learn from this situation, as we always do. Since everyone seems so passionate about it, flags will be the priority. As witnessed by the picture of the Flagger in 1, holding an SC board, and two flags while maintaining comms, you CAN and we USUALLY do get a lot of multitasking done.

3) The basis of this whole situation, is that people DID NOT follow 8.3.1a. SLOW while under yellow. It does not matter how many, how high, how yellow they were. Frikken lift! It is that simple. What is being suggested here is that we don't respond, because competitors don't want to follow the rules. How does that last sentence read to you?

4) Scott: 8/10, yep, lovely, a good measure. Should bring everyone back well in side the traction circle. The 9.5/10 is the problem. Taking this thread into account, then when we start issuing penalties for 9.5/10 ESPECIALLY knowing who some of those 9.5/10 drivers are, what do you suppose will happen? The number of "I'm special" and "Hurt Feelings" reports will be mind blowing.

5) Have people been injured in the past by being involved in racing? Yes. And in every single incident something is learned, and procedures are adjusted.

6) After MANY MANY years of hard work, we have substantially raised the number of people on stands, and far more importantly to me, the quality of those people. The last event, we had EVERY stand covered, with extras in specified locations. Understaffed? Compared to what, The Rolex?

I try and stay modest and calm at all times, but some of this thread is crap. I have just returned from working with over 180 of the best track workers in the world, with some of the fasted vehicles in the world. Some of those workers are the ones being discussed in this thread. Myself and others have hundreds of days worked doing what we do, sometimes in a very serious environment. If our efforts and hard word are not needed, no problem. I have many other things I can do with my time.

/rant off

-I

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"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:37 am 
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All of this is about Scott's car when he spun, right? Was it blocking part of the track, or was it off the racing surface? Just curious, because I don't know.

Waved double yellows are supposed to be for when the track is partially obstructed, I think. Or at least, that's the only time I would be trying to wave two of them at the same time when I'm there marshaling. Hopefully that's what is being taught at the race schools.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Off track far enough to be beeched on a berm....

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"Nos Ludos Intra Vehicula"

"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:48 am 
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It's worth noting that SCCA doesn't use double yellows according to their rule book. Two states of yellow, steady and waved. Both single. Leaves a free hand for radio comms. Likely arrived at that concept to make single person flagging stations feasable.

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:35 am 
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Yes Brent, that is true. But we do use double waved yellows when the course is obstructed (see the ARMS GCR, section 8.3(b)iii).

Which is why I would only have waved double yellows if there was an obstruction on course... and would have expected that that was the way things would be taught in a race school.

There are lots of variations in flag rules for events done in other places, but I would think our stated rules should take precedence at our own events. :D


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:59 am 
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Sorry if that last post sounded defensive, I'm a bit thin-skinned sometimes. And I've been a marshal a lot longer than I've been a racer.

If I'm understanding correctly, things were done properly according to our existing rule book in responding to the spin in question. But Leigh and Brent are suggesting changes should be made in the future to better protect marshals when they are trackside. Which is all fair enough. My only constructive comment would be that it takes quite a while to get new marshals 'trained up' on existing rules, and that changes should be well thought out before they are implemented. It seems we already have a problem with getting everyone on the same page as to how the current rules work, willy-nilly changes will only make things worse.


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:05 am 
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Ian Pearce wrote:
2) My words have been taken literally. I will adjust them: It is difficult to do four things at once. Keep teaching the protocol, as it was and has been for years. We will do our best to learn from this situation, as we always do. Since everyone seems so passionate about it, flags will be the priority. As witnessed by the picture of the Flagger in 1, holding an SC board, and two flags while maintaining comms, you CAN and we USUALLY do get a lot of multitasking done.

-I


I apologize, I read your phrasing as "we don't do it". If double waved is possible for an obstruction on course then I rescind my earlier comments!

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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:11 am 
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me as well Scott


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:47 am 
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All good conversation.

The SCCA info I have shows, Waved yellow for off track vehicle or personnel, and double for ontrack, blockage of track, or personnel ontrack.
In the end, it all comes down to the same end: Yellow means something is up, and should be responded to accordingly. (read slower pace)

Who's money is on who at Lemans? :)

Shout out to Sean and Nate K who departed from Mtl, right to France. Something about T8........ :)

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"That is on the floor..... in fifth..... 6500????..." -Buffum to Smith (140mph+, Rallye Charlevoix.....)

"A HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FIVE DOLLARS????"

"Great, now we're gonna get frikken' yelled at....."
"Let the record show that the evening degenerated at 2022hrs..... Duly noted..."


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 Post subject: Re: 2018
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:50 pm 
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I don't like using double waved yellow for marshals responding. It limits our capability to upgrade the flag status if we have an escalation. If we're single waved for a car off track, and we get a car that stops on track while we're working the first incident, we can upgrade to dwy. Racers can see that it's a dwy and they can check up accordingly. If we're already dwy for a car and a marshal off to the side of the track and we have the same thing happen, how do we let racers know that there is a partial track blockage now? Its important when we're making flag rules to keep them as simple as possible. Having a DWY mean two things means racers have to try and evaluate a bunch more things than they already have to when they come up to an incident. If it only means 'situation x' then when you see one, you know immediately what's up. I don't like my flags to mean multiple things...

Eventually we would go to a SC/ Red anyways, but we still need the flags to correctly give the right info to drivers at the time immediately after the incident - especially something like over the crest at 5.

On the topic of what SCCA does, we moved away from standing flags (except the steady yellow before a waved, which is our own special thing to help give drivers more of a heads up, and the debris flag) because it's a lot easier to see a waiving flag than a steady one. We used to do steady reds many moons ago, but people were missing them, so we wave em now.

Because we use a dwy for track blockages, we don't wave it that often, because they're relatively rare. We can do it, it's just not the slickest thing, but it does work.

Like Ian said though, it doesn't matter what the flag rules are. Since I came up in 2006 and started flagging, the car flag rules have gone basically unchanged. We've been doing the dwy thing for years now - I don't know what is taught in the race school, but there is obviously some deficit if we're having this discussion. If competitors are still trying to go too fast through yellow zones, it doesn't matter what we wave.

In my career, I've had 2 situations where I was working an incident and I had another vehicle join me in the runoff. Both times it was dry conditions with no oil or other debris and the correct flags were displayed for that series. Both times it was because the competitor was overdriving and made a mistake. I didn't get clipped because our training here on response teaches you how to approach cars/bikes during a local yellow, and that the flags don't protect you, so you have to treat response with great respect and position yourself accordingly - which I'm absolutely sure is what the Marshal involved in the incident in 5 did. That being said, going through at max velocity - 0.1% puts us in greater risk. We would all prefer to never have to deal with this type of situation. Also I was mostly just lucky they didn't come straight at me...

I wasn't present for the incident in question, but it's not something that's foreign to me. People need to check up when they see a yellow. Its all part of the learning process, and no one got hurt, but understanding where we're coming from is important.

Also, the whole 'marshals not responding' thing is a rant for another day lol


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